Searching the Internet, I found Silverlight Spy. This is a cool, free tool that helps in many ways with Silverlight Development. With Silverlight Spy you can inspect your XAP package, monitor events, network activity and performance and more. But the best part is that I can inspect the elements within my XAML at runtime and even make changes. Many, many thanks to the developers.
And, yeah, that the Windows ecosystem is still worseoff than apt-get forever ago is a shocking, b further proof that Richard Stallman was right about everything ;. We use that for deploying two products. When I say not terrible it hides a lot of the design by committee ugliness of MSI packages. Have you looked at chocolatey as a total replacement for apt-get? If you havent, be prepared for eye gouging disappointment! That too! But it never matures. You are stuck with half-assed stuff in many cases. Wow that was a great read.
Nexxxeh on Oct 10, As stupid as [my reply] may sound, thanks. Your comment prompted me to read that, and you were right, it was a great read. I do get where you're coming from but I have a more moderate perspective. I mean we can certainly point to examples where that's the case: Silverlight's a classic here, if that term's even appropriate, and then of course there's WP7, 8, and 10, as mentioned by the grandparent. And these are clearly not trivial examples. Nevertheless, I must point out that large bodies of code I wrote in the mid-noughties are still running substantially unmodified today.
What's perhaps interesting is that these codebases are desktop tools, where it can be argued that Microsoft have achieved true mastery after WPF came out everything notably settled down, and unlike MFC and WinForms it really hasn't been replaced. It tends to be other areas where the worst of the churn has occurred: web, mobile, database access how many versions of EF to get it right?
JohnBooty on Oct 10, This is the single most baffling thing about Windows to me, and it always has been. Why insist on trying to sell Visual Studio licenses, instead of maximizing the amount of software written for your platform s? It doesn't even seem like they're acting in rational self-interest by doing that. I suppose their rationale is that they give a lot of development tools away for free, and you only really have to pay for the really enterprise-y editions.
I guess? Still dumb to me. MS DOS used to come with a Basic interpreter, if that's what you mean ; Later, when the PC platform became what we know today, there wasn't really a channel for free small f software except shareware magazines and Microsoft surely would not be seen with that crowd! In those days, Microsoft wasn't concerned with losing the heads and minds to another platform but with losing the revenue to Borland.
Since then, more and more has been made available I still fondly remember laying my hands on the first Windows SDK day came with a free command line version of the MSVC compiler , but it is a culture shift that won't be rushed as long as there are no really pressing reasons. RaleyField on Oct 11, For a while now they haven't been doing that. Community editions are just as good as paid ones and before that Express versions were still comparable if not better than open source IDEs.
Licensing their dev toools gives discounts on tools for development which pushes orgs to buy for-realsies licenses. Partnering with them gives rebates on their dev tools licenses and gives you kickback when you push your customers to buy for-realsies licenses. There was a time when MS would detecting the binary name, and change core kernel functionality just to provide bug-compatibility to older versions of Windows. By that time they got an unbeatable market dominance In Microsoft's defense, they also tend to support their stuff for a long time.
I work with MFC every day. Maybe it's fixed with the reinvigorated WPF on Win I don't care anymore, but I do caution anyone to ever use any MS Technology younger than 15 years. I'd say. Net Core is worth considering, but no real UI story as of yet You mean Microsoft Foundation Classes? NET crazyness. That's actually pretty good of MS.
Maybe there's a cautionary tale about being an early adopter here. I don't know if I would start a new project with MFC, but it was a fantastic decision in In a way, I think it's harder to pick technologies today for large projects. It seems like if something isn't new and growing steadily, it's stale and fading fast. What are the tools and frameworks with a long, healthy middle age ahead of them?
I'm learning Go right now because there are a couple of web services I need, but I'm not that confident that I'll be able to run the same code for the next 20 years. Oh man, I remember those now. You're right - they were better. It reinforces my point about how difficult it is to choose a long-term technology.
It feels a little like picking stocks. Erlang, for instance? Picking up a new shiny thing and complaining that it's not something with a proven track of backward compatibility is not a rational thing to do. WorldMaker on Oct 9, As someone that worked on migrations to Silverlight and then to UWP, I still don't understand why these are seen as such big deals. The only big loss from Silverlight was being able to browser-host it, but even then that was probably worth losing for the greater good to avoid terrible plugin websites.
The only thing they really dropped was Silverlight as an unnecessary brand name. Then again, developers like to complain when their cheese is moved, it could be just like Python 2 versus Python 3 or VB6 versus VB7. Yet incremental addition of CSS features. You couldn't just port from WPF to Silverlight.
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They took away tons of features. WinRT was even worse. No idea about UWP but I don't care anymore. That's why I mentioned semver. APIs change all the time, backwards compatibility gets broken. Yes, conversions weren't always straight forward, but often were possible , and there was an evolutionary arc to it all, and a migration story to follow, even when sometimes that story was a bit rougher than anyone wanted. They couldn't have done that because these technologies are not exactly for the same things and don't have the same features.
Silverlight was mainly for apps embedded in the browser. It was very limited compared to WPF and not meant to replace it. Similarly, Metro was not meant to replace WPF. It was extremely limited in what you can do. You couldn't build serious desktop apps with that. The fact that all those technologies use XAML does not mean they're newer versions of the same thing. The difference in APIs is not what matters, it's the difference in what they can actually do and how that makes them different.
WorldMaker on Oct 10, The family tree seems pretty clear to me, yes, Silverlight was a sideways jag, but it wasn't originally "just" for embedding in the browser, it was a cross-platform WPF subset. Starting next month-ish UWP supports. NET Standard 2. NET and cross-platform. You still don't have a clear path forward from WPF. I don't understand why they even needed UWP. Why not improve WPF? I think. NET to the same table.
The full story I think is pretty fascinating, but that's the executive summary. NET became. Not that I'd admit to doing so if I built such a beast. That's a very charitable explanation that I find hard to accept. I think it's more that MS. Net development is organized in way that it's easy to do new stuff but hard to maintain an effort long time.
In other areas they are able to make progress without breaking everything all the time. C has stayed backwards compatible while still moving forward quickly. SQL server doesn't release a new version every 2 years that breaks old stuff. Somehow they seem to lack leadership. Keep in mind that.
NET Core is almost the same. It's been a huge hurdle across the board, web and desktop alike. I'm sure if the. NET team had had a magic wand to shrink the. NET Framework cap-f down to a smaller size and remove all the legacy Win32 code without breaking so much compatibility they would have. It's easy to say in hindsight that they should have tried for something like what. Those APIs are terrible and should have died. But again they have no upgrade path. They just produce something new and expect everyone to jump on board. My expectation is that UWP will last years and then they will have something else that does the same but in a different way and UWP is in maintenance mode.
WorldMaker on Oct 11, You may be confused. NET Framework 4. Again, I'm not sure how much clearer of an upgrade path you could want? Wait so are you saying UWP apps can now access the machine they're running on in a sane manner so, limited only by the privileges of the user who ran the app, without additional limitations enforced by the platform itself? Because that was the main limitation of Metro apps, you couldn't really do anything useful with them, you couldn't even access the hard drive normally or edit the windows registry.
This is why you couldn't "upgrade". It wasn't an upgrade to any previous tech, it was a downgrade as the platform literally had less capabilities. It is, or at least was, basically a platform for making sandboxed mobile apps that you can run on the desktop Silverlight wasn't an "upgrade" to WPF for the exact same reason. It was a more limited platform and you couldn't switch WPF apps over. WorldMaker on Oct 12, Things are still sandboxed, but the sandbox has grown a lot since early Windows 8 "Metro" era. Depending on your definition of "sane", it seems rather "sane" to me to have at least some sandbox protection of the applications to run.
Yes, Windows 8 felt like a straight-jacket more than a sandbox to some, but current UWP, especially with. So, you still can't touch the registry by default, but why would you want to? There are much better places to store stuff. The UWP is meant to be a replacement for Win32, so it shouldn't be a shock that a lot of Win32 components aren't available by default. However , you can use the Desktop Bridge and request permission in your app manifest for more privileges, including things like registry access.
The Desktop Bridge has a lot of examples out there on things you can do. There are even samples on how to migrate settings currently stored in the registry ugh, why over to Local AppData storage like a proper application, to transition away from Win32 bad practices. Of course, the parts of the application that need the Desktop Bridge will only work on Windows with a Win32 subsystem.
There was no migration story. Usually an API gets more features but in this case they took away a lot of critical stuff. A lot of us write applications that need the full power of the OS and not just a small arbitrarily chosen subset. These frameworks are by no way equivalent. Silverlight was running on multiple versions of Windows and Mac OS. It should have being kept just for that awesome feature. Which is totally laughable because it means choosing the MS stack allow one to target less Windows OSes than third party tools. If it is old, it will be supported for a long time.
If it is new, the odds are mostly on it not surviving. Ever wondered why so many people insist on using outdated stuff? You get a better deal from open source. But even there you may not like the possible consequences of using non-mainstream things. They support the stuff they can't kill for a long time. You can still run VB6 apps but try running a. Easy, just get the runtime from here. I'm not sure it requires a rewrite, the old stuff still works. The trouble is the constant churn is draining, I've pretty much abandoned the platform because of it. Calling that "constant churn" is a massive exaggeration.
First, using WTL or WFC were just bad decisions because those were side-projects and MS never told companies to switch to that and definitely didn't encourage rewrites into that. They were not replacements of anything by any stretch of imagination. It is just a side-project, not something ever intended to become the main MS dev stack.
And MFC was released 25 years ago. So they switched 5 times in 25 years. You could possibly add Silverlight in there which is extremely similar to WPF so only half-counts for churn purposes. Would you want to still be programming in MFC today? I am pretty sure you wouldn't. Saying that's "exactly the same" as the situation with web is ridiculous. Your 5 times in 25 years suggests an overhaul every 5 years.
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Context matters. Also not fixing bugs in earlier tech creates a compulsion to switch to the next tech. Microsoft used to only make money selling software licenses. With Azure they can bill you for the licenses and the computing platform, while also ensuring a pretty impressive degree of lock-in once the platform is sold. Not only are their incentives still out of alignment, the massive consultant eco-system they maintain is still incentivized to push the same-old lock in in a new costume. SOAs are like partners in bed Picking Apple as an example, other are possible. Apparently only Microsoft does it.
This is exactly what made me quit desktop development on Windows. There's a semi-contradiction in your post that I think speaks to some of the issues MS had: "It started with windows phone 8 and the Metro UI. But the side effect of that is that it was different, and difficult to adapt an existing app to. Essentially, MS needed to make a bold new platform with inventive new features, but also make the platform very compatible with the other major mobile platforms. You can't easily square that circle. Now, MS also messed up in a million and one ways like my phone never getting a WP8 upgrade My wife had several Windows Phones in succession.
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Her use of a phone is very practical: contacts, texting, weather information. All of this was available at a glance in a much much better way than either Android or the iPhone have. It was a better business UI. It was harder to use if you had many apps. But seriously, having a phone open to the equivalent of Windows 3.
The iPhone opens to something like the Program Manager but with little numbers showing which apps have active notifications. Mine is configured to show a clock, mini calendar, and weather. Incoming e-mails, SMSes, or other messages are visible in the notification bar.
I could configure it to show me little previews of messages, but I chose not to. Android has supported home screen widgets and activity shortcuts since forever. Live tiles are hardly better, they're just a very Metro-y approach to the same feature. There used to be a homescreen replacement app for Android called SlideScreen  homepage is active, but the app is abandoned that would try to give you as much information at-a-glance as possible.
Thats imo no contradictions. They banked on having everything look the same in the whole OS but never considered that certain apps just straight up wouldn't work with the metro UI concept. Most consumers don't care but it is something I was surprised iPhones and Android didn't have at least at the time.
It has been a while since I have used a Windows Phone. I'm pretty sure Windows Phones predating this also had it although documentation seems lacking. No sources says it predates I have not experimented with this on Android. Maybe my memory if failing me, but that's how networking on iOS always worked.
WiFi Assist solves that. Perhaps he is referring to the long-standing habit of iOS to NOT drop the wifi until way out of range which would lead to an awkward hang. I think they fixed that in the last year or two, but it was pretty damn annoying. This is the most infuriating feature ever. Google implemented it in in Android, and you couldn't properly disable it. Not even today. I frequently need to connect to intranets where Google services are blocked for security reasons, and it's infuriating to fight hundreds of times with the settings so you can get the WiFi to work.
Then in my opinion it sounds like it is still not "properly implemented" with a toggle. Thank you. I have always been curious about Android. I do agree it's probably better not to have this feature by default then to have without a toggle. Just depends on use case. Oh, they have a toggle. They've just changed it every time, and broken it in subtle ways every time. The6P4C on Oct 10, Now they've introduced this "Mobile data has run out" which stops me from accessing my telco's app to check my prepaid balance, because it completely cuts off all mobile data.
Just as annoying. Most consumers don't care but it is something I was surprised iPhones and Android didn't have at least at the time. I remember having an app on android that did that long before windows phone had it. Great battery saver. Samsung cloned it for their S8 Series and it seems to be actually usable from the start compared to windows continuum.
Though by the time continuum was available, wp was dead. That is technically different although similar. I have updated with dates. Windows Phone definitely appears to have been first in this scenario unless you count rooted devices which may have something I don't know about.
If the wifi doesn't work, no phone will use it. If the wifi is BAD, that is completely different. I am implying an inconsistent wifi with speed or LAN issues. My iPhone prior to Wifi Assist will use the network at my house if it has a good wifi connection regardless if was broken or just slow. I had the same experience while working on WP in In early , I reported a bug when some of the elements inside LongListSelector would disappear randomly on scrolling. So I started a discussion on Microsoft forums on this bug.
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Someone from Microsoft confirmed this bug. I tracked this bug for 9 months. And guess what they never fixed it. They never fixed a critical bug in the most used UI component of mobile apps. A lot people tell me Xcode is garbage, Eclipse is a nightmare, but these apps keep getting cranked out.
At the rate an app builder is adding features, the universal-platform paradigm is cognitive overload. If MS gives me a stable API to an email client, a calendar, a shared drive, and a messaging or video chat service, I'd spend the 5 hours to automate a 5 minute inconveneince. A windows phone with a bunch of "lifehacks" apps would tremendously useful to much of the smartphone market, as long as they had the cant-live-without-apps too. It's a shame it's tied to the Android platform, honestly. I'd kill to have Android Studio's functionality when developing for iOS.
And no, AppCode doesn't make the cut. Android Studio is a fork of InteliJ, you cannot use it as InteliJ, because the options are tailored for Android, If you use InteliJ with Android plugin instead, then you will always be behind the curve of the actual Android development, as JetBrains catches up. DiabloD3 on Oct 10, How is it a fork of a closed source product, and how is the developer of said closed source product behind the curve of their own product? Ever heard about cooperation and developer agreements between companies?
IntelliJ isn't closed source, it's on GitHub, under an open license. Only the community edition code. So how do you compile the add-ons that require the closed source part? You can have all the features of Android Studio in all the languages I mentioned just with the open plugins. No, because Google has changed the way wizards work, which means any plugin needs to be developed explicitly for Android Studio as well. As proof of this, the Flutter team just released a version of their plugins for Android Studio.
Android Studio also includes bits of CLion for example. No you are the one ignoring what I am saying, as apparently you are not doing Android development. Spoiler: I do. A lot. Ok, fare enough. You win. What was so horrible about it? I almost invested in a surface just off the strength of the UI; I rather liked that they were trying to merge desktop and tablet. Why was the experience so bad? Windows 8 "metro" UI caused an uproar for many reasons, some of the biggest ones being: - the start menu covered the whole screen - applications could only run full screen, even the simplest ones.
You literally couldn't have 2 applications on the screen at the same time. A lot of system settings ones had this problem, too not relevant to the average user, but I use a VPN that is impossible to set up to work in the simple "metro" VPN app, but if you find and start the old win7 app which still exists, you can set it up correctly and you can even connect to it from the "metro" VPN app after that - a lot of computer games that worked on 7 didn't work on 8 likely unrelated to metro UI but still a reason for many people not to update Some problems were fixed in Windows 8.
In Windows 10, most of these things are fine although Win10 gets hate because of its update system and because it installs unwanted apps, but it seems to have much more acceptance overall. Windows 8 basically offered nothing to the average user except annoyance so people didn't want to update.
It had a very nice improvement for developers in the form of Hyper-V, which is the only reason I upgraded, and only after 8. The root problem with Windows 8 UI was that it was clearly not designed with the intention of being a better desktop UI. It was designed with the intention of forcing users to get used to the Windows Phone-style UI on their desktop computer, in hopes that they will then buy Windows Phones out of familiarity. Basically desktop Windows had to "take one for the team". We can see here how much that helped WP. I specifically remember a bunch of games capping at about 20 FPS on Windows 7 and going fps on 8 when it was new using my nVidia Quadro SLI setup at the time, and having no luck finding anyone else report this on google likely because so many people weren't giving 8.
I actually loved 8 and thought that 8. I still kept 7 installed on another drive for the infrequent use of incompatible apps.
It'll be even better soon [as in next month] thanks to. That may be so, but WinRT comes with a bunch of limitations, so there isn't really a no-brainer choice for application development, and also, considering how deeply it's associated with the unpopular Windows Store app and Windows phone, who wants to throw in their lot with it? Frankly it hasn't seemed worth investing that much time into any of them and I pretty much just end up reaching for yet another WinForms MVP app.
But WinForms practically works against you in the effort to separate UI from behavioral code so that isn't that satisfying either. Limitations change as API priorities shift. The platform has grown over time. Some inherent limitations are useful to be a medium to creativity, to the user's control over their system overriding a developer's narcissism, to the idea that security and reliability are worth engineering for , and yes, unlikely to disappear entirely.
I can't dispute the unpopularity of Windows Phone, but from what I hear the Windows Store is fairly successful in Windows Many consumers use it to install apps, which is a judge of popularity. However, if by popularity you instead mean sentiment, then I get the impression that currently most people are ambivalent about the Store in so far as it is a pragmatic tool that people neither love nor hate, just as most people neither love nor hate their toaster so long as it toasts. Here's one data point for you. Windows Store used to have an official Kindle app. It doesn't since the end of last year, because Amazon basically said they don't see the return on that investment.
They now recommend their desktop Win32 app if you want to read Kindle books on Windows. Needless to say, iOS and Android do have well-supported Kindle apps. You can find all kinds of anecdotes on both sides. As a kindle user, I too am extremely disappointed Amazon developers haven't yet build a modern kindle reader for Windows 10 and cling to their Windows 7-targeted Win32 apps for now. The Silverlight-based app they built for Windows 8.
One of the key issues for me purchasing on the Windows Store is that my purchases my disappear at any moment. I have had half of my purchased apps disappear. And it is next to impossible to get a refund. Last week I noticed that my purchased music on Groove has disappeared ahead of the end of year termination of service. This sort of happened to us at our work - a developer pulled an app from the store and we needed to install it on other machines internally, but there was no way to do so without going through the store.
So it left us totally screwed after paying licensing fees. I'm still maintaining a WinForms app, the only problem I've had is dealing with high dpi displays is really messy. The biggest pitfall on a project you work on with other people is how much it tempts you to just put all the behaviors into the code-behind of the form. The problem with UWP is that it requires Win This makes it a no-go for vast majority of developers targeting desktop Windows, given that Win7 is still dominant, and will be for a while to come.
No Windows 7 compatibility is the main reason my company isn't bothering with UWP for our desktop software.
It's the same problem that you have, isn't it? You don't want to support two codebases, you just want to build your app once and have it run in two places. It costs time and development budget to maintain two different codebases, and you have to prioritize. NET Standard. That gets even easier once UWP support for.
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There's also been work recently on Xamarin. Maybe because Windows 7 lacks the sandbox features required? That's a good argument for not having the app store on Win7, but APIs are a separate matter. If UWP API could be used to write something that is both a store app on Win10, but can also be deployed let's say, in a manner similar to Electron apps, with the runtime packaged with the app on Win7, I think we'd see a lot more of them. Even if you had to build it separately, so long as most of UI code could be shared, it's a boon.
As it is, it's easier to just target WPF. And I know it's not an easy thing. But if e. WorldMaker on Oct 13, It's a green field versus brown field problem. Whereas UWP has to compete with Win32 on the desktop and tablet. It's easy to armchair quarterback hindsight and wonder if they spent too much money in the green field, but it should be reasonable to see why the green field looked so appealing at the time.
It's also easy from to forget the real, hard, brown field battles that Microsoft did fight, particularly as Windows 8 and Windows 8. Almost all of the missteps in Windows 8 that people yelled at Microsoft for direct consequences of building the UWP out and trying to make it competitive to Win Some of the features like the Charms were attempts to give the UWP some platform-wide features that would have really differentiated it from Win32, but found they added confusion because they weren't easily portable back to Win32, and that is just one example out of many. Brown field work is hard.
I don't get the impression that the green field work Microsoft tried in mobile ate resources that would have been better spent on the brown field work on the desktop. If they had built a "UWP subsystem for Windows 7" at the time of Windows 8, people would have asked for it for the last remaining months of Windows XP. Windows 7 is feature complete; it may have security support for a bit longer, but it's out of support for new Windows features it ended mainstream support in ; it ends extended support in It's now two released versions behind 8, 10 and more versions behind if you count "service packs" 8, 8.
Honest introspection: if you are a developer and someone asked for a feature to be backported to a version from 7 years ago that is 6 major versions back, would you support that or would you encourage them to pay for your hard work and upgrade to something more recent that already has that feature? It's not just that the work is hard, it's ignoring years of hard work that you've already done. It occurs to me that a lot of it is really the sunken cost fallacy.
WorldMaker on Oct 16, That's pretty much the summary of what I was trying to convey. The Python 2 versus Python 3 "war" is obviously very related. It's a fascinating dance that likely will always plague development. The number of individuals permitted to use the software is limited to the number of purchased licenses not a floating license. If you want to purchase a license, and you are the only person planning to use that license, then the personal license is for you.
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